12 12 24 PSEG West Orange BOA ZB 24 06 PSEG 35 Mt Pleasant Ave Condensed

reserving them to the maximum possible 8 ability of the Applicant. 9 CHAIRMAN NEUER: But you didn't review 10 the transcripts or the videos of the prior testimony 11 as to why the development was such that those trees 12 are scheduled to be removed as a result of the 13 construction. 14 THE WITNESS: No, I have not seen a 15 video or was even told there was a video. 16 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Mr. Linson, you 17 mentioned the BPU regulations. 18 THE WITNESS: A little louder? 19 CHAIRMAN NEUER: The board of public 20 utilities, you mentioned that there -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 CHAIRMAN NEUER: -- they have 23 guidelines and regulations. 24 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 25 They, you know, I know there's -- it's Page 84 1 variances and I know we work a lot with steep slope 2 situations and interacting with soil conservation and 3 wetlands stuff, so -- Highlands Act. 4 So it's all related, but -- and I 5 actually was on a zoning board at one time for about 6 five years and -- 7 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Are you bragging or 8 complaining? 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah, so... 10 CHAIRMAN NEUER: So are there any 11 variances from the Tree Removal Ordinance required by 12 this application? 13 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- I'm not aware 14 of any actual variances necessary. There -- if -- 15 if, for example, there was a champion tree on site. 16 I mean, I haven't checked the records, but if there 17 were, if any of these trees were a contender for the 18 -- to be the state champion, then there would be a 19 specific need for a variance to have these trees 20 removed. 21 CHAIRMAN NEUER: But as we sit here 22 tonight, you're not aware of any variances from the 23 Tree Removal Ordinance that are required. 24 Is that correct? 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think you have

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 22 (Pages 85 to 88) Page 85 1 the facts in front of you and you -- having seen the 2 testimony of engineers and everything, only you can 3 determine whether the intent of the ordinance has 4 been meet and that the applicant has exhausted all 5 other alternatives in possibly saving -- saving these 6 large trees that have been existing on the site since 7 it was first developed. 8 CHAIRMAN NEUER: However, the township 9 forester has stated that the application complies in 10 all respects with the law. 11 Is that correct? 12 THE WITNESS: He's not losing sleep 13 over it. There are others in the community that are, 14 but -- 15 CHAIRMAN NEUER: I'm well aware of 16 that, but we're talking about somebody who has been 17 employed by the township to provide -- 18 THE WITNESS: He has -- you know, 19 Mr. Kipp has done his due diligence. 20 And, again, I -- I apologize for using 21 the term bean counter, but that's -- that's what it's 22 come down to. 23 CHAIRMAN NEUER: I understand the term 24 very well, thank you. 25 It's now time to move to the public; Page 87 1 you, John. 2 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Mr. Linson, there is 3 something in your background. 4 MR. BARBEE: He may have two different 5 devices listening, so one is picking up the echo. 6 MS. CHANDLER: Okay, he's muted now. 7 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Okay. 8 Thank you, Mr. Barbee. 9 In any event, members of the public, 10 this is your opportunity to ask questions of the 11 witness based upon the testimony he has presented 12 tonight. 13 This is not the time for making 14 statements or presenting your own evidence. That 15 comes at other portions of the meeting. 16 This portion is limited only to 17 questions based upon his testimony. 18 Kindly raise your hand so that you may 19 be recognized and admitted into the meeting. 20 MS. CHANDLER: Yes, we have Mosha 21 Rudin. 22 Please state your name and address for 23 the record. 24 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Mr. Rudin? 25 THE WITNESS: I'm here. Page 86 1 however, we're well past our 9:30 break time. 2 It's 9:46. We're going to take a 3 recess until 9:55. 4 We are now in recess. And members of 5 the public, please don't go away. It's your turn to 6 ask questions. We are now in recess until 9:55. 7 (Whereupon, a short recess is taken 8 from 9:46 p.m. to 9:55 p.m.) 9 CHAIRMAN NEUER: It appears to me that 10 the board has fully reassembled. 11 Recess is over. 12

We are now in recess until 9:55. 7 (Whereupon, a short recess is taken 8 from 9:46 p.m. to 9:55 p.m.) 9 CHAIRMAN NEUER: It appears to me that 10 the board has fully reassembled. 11 Recess is over. 12 Members of the public, this is the 13 opportunity for you to ask questions of the witness 14 based upon his testimony. 15 Somebody has got to turn off their -- 16 MS. CHANDLER: I think that's 17 Mr. Linson. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm here. 19 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Okay. 20 MS. CHANDLER: Some feedback. 21 CHAIRMAN NEUER: John, turn off your 22 microphone for a minute, please. 23 As I was saying, members of the public 24 -- there's noise in the background. Somebody -- 25 MS. CHANDLER: Yes, it's coming from Page 88 1 MS. CHANDLER: State your name and 2 address, please. 3 CHAIRMAN NEUER: We're not getting a 4 response. Mosha Rudin. 5 MS. CHANDLER: You're good to go. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm here. 7 MS. CHANDLER: Okay. State your name 8 and address for the record. 9 THE WITNESS: Oh, again? John Linson. 10 CHAIRMAN NEUER: No. No, John. Not 11 you. 12 This is for Mr. Mosha Rudin. Do you 13 have any questions for the witness? 14 (No Response.) 15 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Can you hear me. 16 MS. RUDIN: Can you hear me? 17 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Yes. Who's this. 18 MS. RUDIN: Hi. This is Joyce Rudin. 19 I'm not sure why it's saying Mosha Rudin. It's Joyce 20 Rudin. 21 CHAIRMAN NEUER: That's what it says. 22 MS. RUDIN: Okay. Mr. Linson, nice to 23 see you again. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, Joyce. 25 MS. RUDIN: How are you? And I want --

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 23 (Pages 89 to 92) Page 89 1 THE WITNESS: I'm good. 2 MS. RUDIN: -- to let you know that the 3 tree is doing beautifully. The tree that you planted 4 on my lawn. 5 THE WITNESS: I drive past it 6 regularly. 7 MS. RUDIN: Good. 8 So I just wanted to ask you, do you 9 believe -- is it your impression that the applicant 10 is following, to the greatest of their ability, the 11 intent of the law, which is to save as many trees as 12 possible? 13 THE WITNESS: I -- to the best of my 14 knowledge. I have not seen any of the other 15 testimony or listened to a video or any of the 16 professional -- professionals from Public Service 17 that testified -- that are testifying that the 18 facility has to go where these specimen trees are. 19 So I -- I personally am not convinced 20 that they have attempted to save these trees to the 21 greatest extent possible, particularly when it's the 22 largest trees on the site that are being removed or 23 proposed for removal. I just -- it just doesn't add 24 up in my mind. 25 MS. RUDIN: Thank you. Page 91 1 have to assume that everything is working 2 appropriately at this time. 3 MS. RUDIN: With the trees on the 4 property, they're just -- 5 THE WITNESS: With the trees on the 6 property. 7 MS. RUDIN: Correct. 8 You mentioned just driving by and the 9 screening that these trees provide from -- for the 10 residents driving by in a suburban neighborhood to 11 not see the metal construction behind it. 12 In your opinion, would this be a 13 significant change in the screening between the -- 14 the street and -- just a change -- a significant 15 change in the screening for our community? 16 THE WITNESS: I -- I think it's a 17 reduction in the quality of life as it is at present. 18 MS. RUDIN: Thank you. 19 Do you think that it's possible 20 removing these trees could impair the habitats of all 21 of the small animals, birds, et cetera, that are 22 living in these trees? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, they're -- they're 24 going to have to go somewhere. 25 And I know, I have seen deer on the Page 90 1 And I know that you've read our 2 prohibitions in the tree ordinance, so you're aware 3 that this tree -- the trees in this property are on a 4 slope. Is that correct? 5 THE WITNESS: What's the question 6 again, Joyce. 7 MS. RUDIN: That these trees -- that 8 this property is on a slope. Is that correct. 9 THE

trees in this property are on a 4 slope. Is that correct? 5 THE WITNESS: What's the question 6 again, Joyce. 7 MS. RUDIN: That these trees -- that 8 this property is on a slope. Is that correct. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is, yes. 10 MS. RUDIN: Okay. And do you -- in 11 your professional opinion, do you believe that 12 removing the trees would increase the amount of 13 stormwater runoff and/or negatively affect stormwater 14 runoff patterns? 15 THE WITNESS: Well, they're very 16 comfortable there and they are soaking up water in 17 their present location, which is at the bottom of the 18 hill. So they're in a strategic location to have 19 nature naturally treat wastewater runoff. 20 So it's just -- the water is going to 21 have to go somewhere and whether it's -- it's able to 22 be soaked into the ground or not, to the extent that 23 it is right now, I don't know. 24 In all my years of driving by there 25 I've never seen a ponding situation down there, so I Page 92 1 site. 2 They hop the fence and they'll find a 3 way in there. Some of -- not all the trees are 4 native, but they been there a hundred years. 5 So the wildlife has adjusted to what is 6 available to it in terms of pollen and nectar and the 7 nuts and seeds that are produced by these trees, so 8 there will be an adjustment to the wildlife by the 9 removal of these trees. 10 MS. RUDIN: In other words, a loss. 11 One final question: Do you believe 12 that removing these trees will result in soil 13 erosion? 14 THE WITNESS: Most likely it will be 15 addressed somewhere along the line, but it will be 16 artificial -- artificially induced by diverting it 17 through a collection system. 18 MS. RUDIN: Okay, thank you so much. 19 Nice to see you. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Thank you, Ms. Rudin. 22 Megan, do we have any other hands up? 23 MS. BRILL: Yes, I have -- I am not 24 seeing any other hands. 25 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Going once.

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 24 (Pages 93 to 96) Page 93 1 Going twice. 2 Any other members of the public for 3 questions for Mr. Linson, please raise your hand now. 4 Seeing none. 5 MS. BRILL: Wait. 6 We got a late one. 7 CHAIRMAN NEUER: I'm sorry, ma'am? 8 MS. BRILL: Yes. We do have Dawn 9 White. 10 Please state your name and address for 11 the record. 12 MS. WHITE: Hi. My name is Dawn White. 13 121 Walker Road, West Orange. 14 MS. BRILL: Okay. State your question. 15 MS. WHITE: Mr. Linson, what bad 16 happens if this is denied and PSE&G is not able to 17 cut down those trees. 18 I know you said you hadn't seen every 19 report that they did, but you do have an opinion on 20 whether or not they can do what they want to do 21 without removing those trees. 22 Can you elaborate a little bit? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, the -- they are, by 24 ordinance, exempt from the requirements of this tree 25 ordinance, and -- but they have volunteered to submit Page 95 1 Mr. Williams, any questions for 2 Mr. Linson? 3 MR. WILLIAMS: I have none at this 4 time, Mr. Chairman. 5 Thank you. 6 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Thank you. 7 Mr. Hess, questions for Mr. Linson? 8 MR. HESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 I have no questions at this time. 10 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Thank you. 11 Mr. Turteltaub, I turn to you if you 12 have any redirect. 13 MR. TURTELTAUB: I do, if I may, 14 please. 15 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. TURTELTAUB: 17 Q. Mr. Linson, when you were asked before 18 by counsel as to your -- you walked the property, 19 have you -- do you have a knowledge of what the 20 property conditions are, especially in the area where 21 the tree removal is going to occur? 22 A. My observation of the trees is -- is 23 purely from as an outsider looking in. I have not 24 examined the trunk of any of the trees or observed 25 any cavities or defects in the trees, so I am kind of Page 94 1 to it. 2 And I -- by doing so, I would hope that 3 they would have explored every possible avenue to 4 preserve these trees and by altering their 5 installation to accommodate these specimen trees that 6 have been there for a hundred years. 7 MS. WHITE: Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Anything else, 9 Ms. White? 10 MS. WHITE: No, I think that's it. 11 Thank you. 12 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Thank you. 13 Ms. Brill, any other hands going up? 14 MS. BRILL: I'm not seeing any yet. 15 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Members of the public, 16 any

WHITE: No, I think that's it. 11 Thank you. 12 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Thank you. 13 Ms. Brill, any other hands going up? 14 MS. BRILL: I'm not seeing any yet. 15 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Members of the public, 16 any further questioning? 17 MS. BRILL: I think that's it. 18 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Going once, going 19 twice. 20 Public questioning is concluded. Let's 21 go back to full screen, please. 22 Mr. Turteltaub. 23 MR. TURTELTAUB: Yes. 24 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Right before I go to 25 you, let me go to my experts. Page 96 1 going by face value for -- on what the tables on 2 TR-02 and -03 say. 3 They did not have a fourth column that 4 related to the condition of the trees, which would 5 usually be, you know, good, fair, poor, you know. 6 So without actually walking the site 7 and confirming up close, you know, the condition of 8 the trees, I am presuming that they're all in good 9 condition. 10 I think if the applicant felt that they 11 were -- they were dead, they would -- they would have 12 included that in the tables, in the narrative. 13 But I can't say that for sure. 14 Q. And in your testimony and on 15 examination, you talked about the fact that if 16 somebody chooses to take down a tree they have to pay 17 the price. And when you get to the point of choosing 18 to take down the tree, could you elaborate further on 19 that with respect to, do you have the option of just 20 saying I'm going to bypass the first part, which is 21 to minimize the destruction of trees, I can just 22 bypass that and choose to pay, or do you have to go 23 through the first step? 24 A. You know, basically when someone is 25 considering to remove a tree, there's two conditions.

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 25 (Pages 97 to 100) Page 97 1 It's either dead, diseased or dying, and then 2 actually considered a dead tree, or it's alive and 3 healthy or semi healthy tree. 4 So there's very little controversy when 5 someone wants to remove a dead or diseased tree. The 6 -- the test comes in when the tree still has life to 7 it, it still has some greenery to it. 8 Can it be treated? Can it be brought 9 back to health? Is there a defect, even though it's 10 alive, that makes it a hazard to the public. 11 So there's -- the -- going through the 12 application process in West Orange, it makes everyone 13 thoroughly consider whether removing the tree is a 14 good idea or not, and if it's a healthy tree that you 15 want to remove to change your landscaping, put in a 16 pool or a tennis court or a sauna or whatever, if 17 you're removing a healthy tree, there are 18 consequences. You're going to have to replace it. 19 And if you can't replace it on your 20 property, you're going to be contributing to a fund 21 which the town will use at its discretion to plant 22 trees elsewhere on public property or public 23 right-of-way. 24 Q. In terms of getting to the point in 25 achieving the minimal destruction of trees, in your Page 99 1 could save this tree or more than one tree. If there 2 are options. 3 If there are no options, then it's 4 necessary to remove the healthy tree. 5 But I am not -- as a tree expert, I am 6 not in a position to say what -- what the options and 7 the configuration of this substation should be. 8 That's for the electrical engineers. And if -- if 9 they have considered as many options as possible and 10 they still come to the same conclusions, then there 11 are no other options. 12 But all I can say is you've got some 13 very nice healthy specimen trees that are there that, 14 wouldn't it be great if we could find a way to work 15 around them. 16 BY MR. TURTELTAUB: 17 Q. You talk about, in the testimony and 18 the ordinance it has, quote, replacement trees. 19 When you plant trees to replace -- as 20 set forth in the ordinance, to replace a large tree 21 that's now being taken down and plant replacement 22 trees, do those trees actually replace what is there 23 today or do those trees do something else? 24 A. That's the -- the intent is that they 25 will replace it. Page 98 1 experience, you look at design alternatives

trees actually replace what is there 23 today or do those trees do something else? 24 A. That's the -- the intent is that they 25 will replace it. Page 98 1 experience, you look at design alternatives to 2 achieve that goal before you go to the point and say, 3 well, now the tree has to come down or you're allowed 4 to take the tree to come down? 5 A. Well -- 6 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Mr. Turteltaub, he's 7 already testified that he didn't look at the plans. 8 MR. TURTELTAUB: No, I am just saying 9 is the general proposition with the ordinance. 10 I understand what you're saying. We do 11 have two other witnesses who will be testifying, but 12 I'm just getting the generalities out. He was asked 13 some of these questions and I just want to be clear 14 about whether -- whether there should be considered 15 alternatives to a plan as part of the site plan 16 review and/or the site plan development. 17 And that's what I am looking to elicit 18 from him, from his testimony, is his opinion as to 19 whether you should look at alternative plans before 20 you settle on taking down a tree. 21 CHAIRMAN NEUER: He's answered it 22 already, but I'll let it go ahead. 23 Please answer the question, Mr. Linson. 24 THE WITNESS: The thought process 25 should be if -- if I can do this instead of that, I Page 100 1 But, you know, even these -- these 2 large trees, they all started out as a sapling, and 3 -- but over time they -- they got to be the size 4 where, you know, they -- they have a huge canopy 5 coverage and contribution. 6 And the -- the idea of planting 7 multiple replacements is to try to get back to what 8 we were before we -- we removed this tree and when we 9 lost that canopy coverage. 10 But, you know, eventually you have to 11 think that if you take down one tree and you replace 12 it with eight trees, at some point in time those 13 eight trees are going to be too close together, we 14 might have to remove a couple of them so that the 15 other trees can thrive. 16 So it's a -- there's always some 17 maintenance. You know, we're trying to manipulate 18 Mother Nature. We have some pretty nice trees now. 19 We don't want to lose our canopy coverage. We don't 20 want to lose the benefits that these tree are 21 providing. 22 But there is a lapse in recovery. And 23 no matter how many small trees we plant, they're not 24 going to immediately provide the same benefit that 25

the benefits that these tree are 21 providing. 22 But there is a lapse in recovery. And 23 no matter how many small trees we plant, they're not 24 going to immediately provide the same benefit that 25 one large tree is providing at the present time.