September 11, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

other side, so there's -- the5 buildings broken up into D-1 and D-2, so.6 I see three on the other side.7 Q. One, two.8 A. I see that's -- yes. If you go back. If you can9 Q. enlarge the --10 Depends on which floor you're looking at. It11 A. depends on which floor you're looking at.12 Okay.13 Q. If you can go to the bottom part of the left side14 of the lower building and just move it over a bit.15 Yeah. I see at that point, I see four, is that correct?16 Yes, that's what I was referencing.17 A. And they're on the lower side of the hallway as18 Q. well, right?19 That's correct.20 A. Okay.21 Q. Now, could we move the image up. Well, let's22 start with the far left corner. The top of the23 building, that's the second floor. I see to my view24 three affordable housing units on the lower side of the25 20 hallway, is that correct?1 That's correct.2 A. Okay.3 Q. And if we could just move to the other end of the4 upper building. At that point I see, I see six on the5 lower side of the hallway, is that correct?6 That's, that's correct.7 A. Now, Councilman Rutherford in his questions, this8 Q. goes back I think three meetings ago. Council President9 Rutherford said he was concerned that there would be no10 exterior distinction doorways, moldings between the11 affordable units and the market rate units, because he12 didn't want anyone stigmatized. If you recall he asked13 those questions. Do you recall that?14 Yes.15 A. Now, why though, and you indicated, I think, that16 Q. the exterior would look the same, it that correct?17 Yes.18 A. The doorways will all look the same as the market19 Q. rate units, is that correct?20 That's correct.21 A. Why though are the affordable units all bunched22 Q. together in corners, for the most part, and on one side?23 Wouldn't that create sort of a stigmatization that this24 is the affordable housing corner of each floor?25

09/27/2024 06:14:01 AM Page 21 to 24 of 180 6 of 71 sheets 21 Not in my opinion.1 A. Is there any reason in particular why they're2 Q. bunched up this way?3 A lot of times what, when we're planning these4 A. and moving units around, basically to stack them, they5 sometimes are, are clustered. But it is not necessary6 that, that they, you know, they're, to some degree, as7 long as the stacking works, to some degree they can be8 interchanged. Location wise.9 Okay.10 Q. But a decision was made to put them as we see11 here. Who made that decision, was that your decision,12 was that the owners decision?13 It probably likely was more our decision more14 A. than ownership.15 Why are they all on one side of the hallway and16 Q. not the other?17 I had given testimony on that, is that there is a18 A. shorter side and a longer side. The longer -- the19 deeper side of the building permits dens and we did not20 have dens located in the affordable units.21 Okay.22 Q. So that was my next question actually. Are there23 dens in any of the affordable units?24 Currently --25 A. 22 Not just this building.1 Q. Currently none are proposed.2 A. Okay.3 Q. In any of the four buildings?4 That's correct.5 A. Okay. Thank you.6 Q. There's nothing architecturally or structurally7 preventing you from designing this with the affordable8 units staggered in a general way throughout, rather than9 having them bunched together, is there?10 That's incorrect. The, it's important on wood11 A. frame buildings that things stack. That a structure12 stacks, so it's important to look at how these are13 stacked both for structural and mechanical purposes. So14 other than that stacking there would be no reason,15 location wise.16 But you could stack for example, you could take17 Q. two of the affordable units, one on each side of the18 hall, stack them that way. Five units down, put two19 more that way. Five units down put two more that way.20 You could stack that way, couldn't you?21 So on opposite sides of the hall?22 A. Yeah. You could stack with two units designed23 Q. with the same dimensions opposite side of the hall and24 two more on top of them, just like that and you could25 23 design it that way, couldn't you?1 It would -- hypothetically, yes.2 A. Okay. Thank you.3 Q. Have we resolved, I mean there was some4 discussion last week, not last week, but one of the5 other meetings about the nature of

ouldn't you?1 It would -- hypothetically, yes.2 A. Okay. Thank you.3 Q. Have we resolved, I mean there was some4 discussion last week, not last week, but one of the5 other meetings about the nature of the appliances6 between the market rate and affordable units. Will7 there be a distinction in appliances between the two8 units? I'd like you to clarify this, because I don't9 think the answer was clear. I'm not blaming you, I10 don't think it clearly came out.11 No, you're correct. This was something that was12 A. reviewed with ownership and ownership did agree that the13 affordable units and the market units would have similar14 finishes and similar appliances.15 When you say, similar, will they be the same16 Q. appliances? In other words, similar could mean a lot.17 What do you mean by that?18 Intending to be the same. However, sometimes19 A. during projects is that purchasing can sometimes change20 because certain things are available, certain things are21 not. So, but the intent is that they would be the same22 to the extent that it's supply chain and availability.23 Well, the supply chain should affect the market24 Q. rate and the affordable equally?25 24 Hundred percent. You're correct.1 A. So basically are you representing regardless of2 Q. the source of supply and any supply chain issues, that3 the affordable and market will have identical4 appliances?5 Either identical or equivalent. As I said, that6 A. there are sometimes changes made, either a manufacturer,7 so I didn't want to pigeon hold that answer. But8 they're not intended to be a, one is an expansive and9 one is less expensive.10 But I'm trying to nail down a very specific11 Q. point.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm going to interrupt a13 minute. The planning board has in previous applications14 used the term "fairly similar" for this type of project15 based on the ability to deliver appliances, based on the16 ability to deliver those appliances. So if affordable17 and the COAH -- COAH and market rate units all are on a18 floor that needs 12 washer/driers and they're not the19 same washer/driers as the previous 12, they have to be20 materially similar for all those 12 units. And that's21 what the planning board has previously conditioned.22 It's worked really well, same condition here. So I hope23 that helps you move on.24 MR. AFRAN: Well, it does. But I'd like to25

7 of 71 sheets Page 25 to 28 of 180 09/27/2024 06:14:01 AM 25 nail it down a little better.1 Basically what -- I mean listen, I can't2 Q. understand why you would have a supply chain problem in3 getting a stove for the affordable unit but not for the4 unit across the hall, that market rate. Seems to me5 they should all be coming in together. So that's what6 I'm trying to get to.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: If they all come in at the8 same time, the planning board does condition that they9 all be used in both units at the same time. It would10 not be that one gets -- all market rate get this and11 affordable don't. You're finishing a quadrant that12 quadrant get's those units all at the same time.13 MR. AFRAN: I appreciate that. I'm not14 criticizing Mr. Appel, but I don't think his answer was15 quite specific.16 Is that your understanding, that the market rate17 Q. and the affordable's will get the same appliances when18 they're ordered from the manufacturer?19 MR. PLOCKER: I'm going to answer it. The20 way Chairman Bagoff phrased it, that condition of21 approval would be acceptable to the applicant.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Is that okay, Mr. Afran?23 MR. AFRAN: That's fine.24 Thank you, Mr. Plocker.25 26 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.1 Is there a view from Building D from the top of2 Q. the ridge, that's something you've taken into3 consideration in sighting the units?4 Can you repeat that? Just clarify that.5 A. Is there a view to the human eye from the6 Q. apartments from the top of the ridge in Building D that7 you've taken into account in situating the affordable8 units versus the market rate units?9 So what you're saying is that is the, there was10 A. not a specific reason why affordable units were located11 let's say close to the right side of the building or the12 left side of the building for purposes of view. They13 were done more for stacking.14 Well, no, but I what I'm asking is, on the15 Q. opposite side of the hall, that will be the side that16 looks out from the top of the ridge, is that correct?17 Strike that. I'll rephrase that.18 The side of the hall opposite the affordable19 units, will that be the side that looks out over the20 ridge and gets the view?21 The, the side that looks out toward the east is22 A. the deeper side of the hallway and there is no23 affordable units located there.24 Is that the side that gets the view from the top25 Q. 27 of the

The, the side that looks out toward the east is22 A. the deeper side of the hallway and there is no23 affordable units located there.24 Is that the side that gets the view from the top25 Q. 27 of the ridge?1 I mean, all, all of, you know, there's views in2 A. all directions from the buildings.3 I said from the top -- I'll will rephrase my4 Q. question. Let's get specific.5 So in the eastern direction there are no6 A. affordable units looking easterly from Building D.7 I'll accept that. Thank you.8 Q. I do have questions about Howell Road an Kuzik,9 but I don't know if that's something Mr. Appel is,10 whether it's within the scope of his work on this case.11 Are you conversant with the placement of the entry and12 exit points and the road structure or is that something13 for another witness?14 Not part of my responsibility.15 A. You've gone into this and I apologize, I don't16 Q. think I have a specific note on it. I may not have17 heard you clearly when you were going through it. Can18 you explain again what is the variance that is being19 sought here?20 So inside the ordinance there is a provision21 A. which is shown, let me pull up --22 Oh, I'm sorry, you're referring to the exterior23 Q. wall that's going to be exposed above the grade?24 Correct.25 A. 28 Okay. I reminded myself as you were looking.1 Q. That was the only thing I gave testimony on for a2 A. variance.3 That's good.4 Q. I want to clarify one bit of nomenclature, the5 term ridge line and the term pinch line have been used.6 Can you explain whether there's a distinction between7 the high point of the ridge and the pinch line or are8 they the same?9 I'm not familiar with what you call, pinch line,10 A. because I don't know that I used that terminology. But11 the ridge line is something that was drawn on the map.12 It is not necessarily a ridge but it is a reference line13 that was established for purposes of the ordinance and14 Settlement Agreement.15 I know, I think Mr. Anderson was referring to a16 Q. pinch line reference. The word pinch line has been used17 in this --18 MR. PLOCKER: I believe people, excuse me19 Mr. Afran for interrupting. I believe people have used20 the word pinch point, I don't recall pinch line. And I21 believe, unless anyone wants to correct me, I believe22 that people were referring to pinch point as the closest23 point of Building D to the dotted line.24 I appreciate

n't recall pinch line. And I21 believe, unless anyone wants to correct me, I believe22 that people were referring to pinch point as the closest23 point of Building D to the dotted line.24 I appreciate that correction. My point was pinch25 Q.

09/27/2024 06:14:01 AM Page 29 to 32 of 180 8 of 71 sheets 29 point, not pinch line, is there a distinction in your1 understanding between the high point of what we call the2 ridge and the pinch point or are they the same?3 I, I'm not quite sure what you're asking because4 A. the, there's, there was reference made to the closet5 point that the building is to the ridge line as a pinch6 point because it's only a close point but being that the7 building has jukes and jogs and ins and outs and has8 geometry and the ridge line is not a straight line,9 different parts of building have different dimensions.10 I was only asking because I want it to be clear11 Q. on the record because I didn't understand it myself. So12 you're saying there's a pinch point means the closest13 point of the structure to the high point of what we call14 the ridge. Is that fair to say?15 I don't know that the high point is, is -- that's16 A. what's confusing, because you're putting a bunch of --17 Let me rephrase it.18 Q. MR. PLOCKER: But they are, and I'll let you19 continue, I think the ridge line term is a bit of a20 misnomer. Everybody has referred to the ridge line,21 including the ordinance and in the Settlement Agreement,22 that is a dotted line on a map. It doesn't necessarily23 mean it's the highest point or a steep point, as Mr.24 Anderson and Mr. Appel testified to. The land in that25 30 area remains flat for a certain point east of the ridge1 line or the dotted line. See, I did it. The point of2 the ordinance, the point of the Settlement Agreement is3 if it's not -- that's not the cliff. That's, it's just4 a point that any portion of the building, as long as it5 remains west of the line, complies with the ordinance.6 So to say that that is a pinch point or that is the7 height of the ridge line, I don't think anyone here has8 testified to that. It's just a dotted line on a map and9 I think that is an important distinction during this10 proceeding.11 I appreciate that, I'm just trying to understand12 Q. what pinch point means in relation to the dotted line.13 That's my question.14 MS. McCARTHY: This witness ever use pinch15 point?16 MR. PLOCKER: No, I don't believe he did. I17 believe it came up in questioning.18 MR. AFRAN: I thought he did, that's why I19 was asking.20 Mr. Appel, is that a term you used?21 Q. I may have in my testimony referred to that the,22 A. when asked

believe it came up in questioning.18 MR. AFRAN: I thought he did, that's why I19 was asking.20 Mr. Appel, is that a term you used?21 Q. I may have in my testimony referred to that the,22 A. when asked questions what the closest point was to the23 building.24 So that's why I'm asking you, because I recall25 Q. 31 you used the phrase and it's not clear in the record1 what that refers to. So I just want to understand it.2 The pinch point, is that the part of the building that3 comes closest to what Mr. Plocker just called the dotted4 line?5 That's correct.6 A. Okay. Thank you.7 Q. Now, is there only one pinch point or is the8 pinch point in different parts of Building D?9 I only made reference to one pinch point.10 A. Okay.11 Q. Is that the point where Building D comes closest12 to the dotted line?13 That's correct.14 A. Thank you. I just wanted to clarify.15 Q. MR. AFRAN: Mr. Bagoff, I'll just take a16 moment. I'm just checking my notes.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran, are you18 finished, I'm sorry.19 MR. AFRAN: No, I have one additional20 question.21 Looking at, if we go back to 4.4B or 4.C, doesn't22 Q. really matter. I'm really looking for a depiction of23 the slope versus Building D, so I think that was 4.4B or24 C.25 32 It's either 4.4B or 4.4C.1 A. I don't think it matters which one.2 Q. This is the, I need the other PowerPoint.3 A. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Let the record show4 Council President Rutherford joined the board.5 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Chairman, I just need a6 moment to speak with my client, I'm sorry. I apologize7 for the delay.8 Thank you.9 Q. We have 4.4C on the screen. This is not directly10 what I'm asking you to comment on but it gives us the11 diagrammatic image.12 Now, Building D is pictured to the left and the13 slope is pictured to the right and then there's kind of14 representative house in the very bottom as you spoke15 earlier.16 Now, if you could move back towards the left side17 again and just show Building D. That's perfect.18 Now, the top of the building have you determined19 by any measurements whether it exceeds the height of the20 tree line that is in existence on the slope at any point21 surrounding the building today?22 So the building, you're asking that is the height23 A. of the roof above the existing tree line at any24 location?25

9 of 71 sheets Page 33 to 36 of 180 09/27/2024 06:14:01 AM 33 Just the top of the building is my laymen's1 Q. reference, yeah.2 I, I, I don't know. I don't know. I don't have3 A. an answer for that.4 Okay.5 Q. Has, and I referred to the slope in my question,6 but obviously there are several neighborhoods7 surrounding all of this, they're not all on a slope.8 Has any measurement been taken as to whether, it's the9 same question. Has any measurement been taken whether10 the top of the building, the height of the building,11 exceeds the tree line as seen from these other12 neighborhoods?13 Have not.14 A. Okay.15 Q. One final question that I don't think you fully16 addressed, not that it's your fault. It was a question17 from the public, I don't think we got to a full answer18 on the point.19 In case of an emergency in each of the buildings20 where is there built in assembly point? I know there's21 some places of refuge you referred to, but is there a22 general assembly point that will be structurally23 available and easily used for assembling in case of an24 emergency?25 34 So I did give this testimony that there would be1 A. an area of refuge provided on the building at each2 floor.3 On each floor?4 Q. Yes, sir.5 A. So those will be -- in general how large are6 Q. they? Are they uniform throughout the project in size.7 It usually would be a small area because these8 A. are typically used by somebody who would be mobility9 impaired, so not for the general public who would go10 down the stairways and go to a public way which would11 typically be the front parking areas of the building.12 Okay.13 Q. So generally the emergency stairways will lead to14 fronts of the buildings?15 It's just an additional protective safety16 A. element.17 The refuge?18 Q. The area of refuge, correct.19 A. Thank you.20 Q. MR. AFRAN: Mr. Chairman, that concludes my21 cross. I think members of the public sitting next to me22 said he had a question, I don't know that it's23 appropriate at this time or not.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Well, we had questions25 35 from members of the public already prior to your1 questioning.2 MR. AFRAN: I'm sorry.3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We did have questions from4 the members of the public prior to your questioning.5 MR. AFRAN: I'm not endorsing or not6 endorsing it. I'm just pointing it out.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I will allow another 208 minutes for questions from the

members of the public prior to your questioning.5 MR. AFRAN: I'm not endorsing or not6 endorsing it. I'm just pointing it out.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I will allow another 208 minutes for questions from the public.9 THE PUBLIC: Seth Weisleder, S-E-T-H,10 W-E-I-S-L-E-D-E-R. West Orange.11 My question is on Building D and as the12 architect the only, Building D is the only building with13 access to the rooftop to be used?14 THE WITNESS: Only building with a habitable15 roof area.16 THE PUBLIC: Okay.17 Is there any reason why the other buildings18 don't have habitable roof areas? They're all similar.19 THE WITNESS: It was, it was determined to20 put them all in one, one building as part of the design.21 THE PUBLIC: Okay.22 Any particular reason why Building D and not23 Building C or B?24 THE WITNESS: Not in particular.25 36 THE PUBLIC: So if we could bring up that1 slide I guess with that slope line. Because there's a2 little image there that I wanted to look at on Building3 D. I noticed that Building D has some structures on it,4 is that correct? On the top. Roof top access. Yeah.5 So if you could zoom in on the left-hand side there6 showing the, showing the rooftop.7 So I'm guessing this diagram shows cars8 underneath of the first floor and then there's four9 stories above that, correct?10 THE WITNESS: That's correct.11 THE PUBLIC: With the rooftop access showing12 about six people on top there and there's some13 structures?14 THE WITNESS: Correct.15 THE PUBLIC: So my question is, are those16 structures permanent structures on the building?17 THE WITNESS: If you look at the18 architectural elevations these are clearly denoted.19 Some are the bulkheads for access to the roof and others20 are going to be open air pergolas.21 THE PUBLIC: So those pergolas are going to22 be permanent structures, and how high will they be?23 Because I don't believe I saw any measurements for the24 height of that and I was wondering if that exceeds the25