September 11, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

09/27/2024 06:14:01 AM Page 37 to 40 of 180 10 of 71 sheets 37 building height that is allowed as part of the1 Settlement Agreement?2 THE WITNESS: We're not even close.3 THE PUBLIC: Close to what?4 THE WITNESS: The permitted is 75 feet and I5 believe we were 47 foot 6, so.6 THE PUBLIC: 47 foot 6 to the floor number7 four, but not including the permanent structures that8 I'm asking about, correct?9 THE WITNESS: Correct. But these, these are10 typically around ten feet in height. And even if these11 were counted, which typically they're not, they would12 still be within the buildable and permitted height for13 these structures.14 THE PUBLIC: Fair enough. Thank you.15 THE PUBLIC: Hello. My name is Victor,16 Misarti, M-I-S-A-R-T-I. I live on Mayfair.17 So I have a question, can we put those up18 again. The site sections.19 So my question also was about the site20 sections. I went to look for those, are those21 available, I mean in between these, since this meeting22 and the last meeting, that on the agenda, the board23 agenda, they have like an engineering set, an24 architectural set but I didn't see these. You mentioned25 38 before these were part of a PowerPoint, different1 PowerPoint presentation. Like are these available for2 the public to see the site sections?3 THE WITNESS: I can't say with certainty4 because I haven't looked on the website, but they were5 submitted, so I assume that they are.6 MS. MCGOVERN: They're on, they're on the7 website.8 THE PUBLIC: I mean they may be, I just9 don't know where to find them.10 And I just had another comment that people11 asked what specific house that is on Rosemont and on the12 other section, which specific house it is on Howell13 Drive. If we could just see the whole picture again.14 Okay. So there's a red line and that red line is15 showing where the section is and there's another red16 line that goes up on the other 4.4B and that goes right17 through the house. So I think it would be easy enough18 to find what exact house that's going through.19 THE WITNESS: Yes.20 THE PUBLIC: Okay. That's all. Thank you.21 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.22 THE PUBLIC: Debbie Butensay,23 B-U-T-E-N-S-A-Y, West Orange.24 So I have a question regarding the picture,25 39 if you could enlarge that one. The pinch point1 diagrammatically seven feet from the dotted line.2 MR. AFRAN: Could we get a reading on the3 number of this chart,

question regarding the picture,25 39 if you could enlarge that one. The pinch point1 diagrammatically seven feet from the dotted line.2 MR. AFRAN: Could we get a reading on the3 number of this chart, please. Thank you. Part of 4.4C.4 The upper part.5 THE WITNESS: So where I'm am showing the6 pointer at that point over here, that's your closest7 point. That's the furthest easterly point and this is8 closest to the, that is what Mr. Anderson was9 referencing in his testimony as well.10 THE PUBLIC: And should there be a fire on11 that roof, people smoking, how do we expect to get a12 fire truck in that pinch point area?13 THE WITNESS: The fire would be fought from14 the front of the building not from the back of the15 building.16 THE PUBLIC: And let's say we need multiple17 fire trucks, like on my block which was Kinzel, corner18 of Rappleye, there was a major fire December 15 with19 three, four fire companies were called in, in addition20 to every, maxed out of every single fire truck from the21 West Orange Fire Department. And then you had first22 responders, you had police, you had EMS. How, how is,23 your vision, how is that going to go?24 THE WITNESS: I believe that we have, this is25 40 addressing code requirements, ordinance requirements and1 the local fire official also reviewed this without2 additional comment on this.3 THE PUBLIC: I'm just asking, you're the4 architect, how do you envision that's going to go?5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry, the fire6 official envisions this, not the architect. That's a7 question for the fire official and, he built the8 building and the fire official decides, and the9 buildings, as he said, by code, are sprinklered.10 THE PUBLIC: Okay.11 So you got roof access, you got people,12 people can smoke up there. What type of materials are13 you using to prevent fires up on the roof?14 THE WITNESS: I would expect that smoking15 would not be permitted in structure like this.16 THE PUBLIC: It's outdoors.17 THE WITNESS: But I, you know, that's an18 operational --19 THE PUBLIC: But you said there was20 barbecues there. You said barbecues were going to be21 permitted up there.22 THE WITNESS: Yes.23 THE PUBLIC: Well, so you got fire.24 THE WITNESS: So the grills that are used in25

11 of 71 sheets Page 41 to 44 of 180 09/27/2024 06:14:01 AM 41 these types of operations are special grills that are1 non flaring grills.2 THE PUBLIC: Right. But there's open fire3 up there, correct?4 THE WITNESS: Open -- the whole idea is, is5 the grills would not have open fire.6 THE PUBLIC: And what materials do you use7 on a rooftop should a fire occur?8 THE WITNESS: The exterior siding is fiber9 cement, which is essentially fire resistant, and most of10 the pedestal pavers, which are the flooring surface,11 typically are either tire -- tile or cementitious, which12 are also fire resistant as well.13 THE PUBLIC: So tell me, what is the actual14 material of the roof? People are walking on cement, is15 what you're saying.16 THE WITNESS: People are walking on pavers17 that are installed above a flat membrane roof. So18 you're not walking on the actual roof, you're walking on19 an elevated paver that is sitting above the roof.20 That's what is proposed.21 THE PUBLIC: So, but my concern is you got22 seven feet from the roof at one point, if somebody does23 elect to smoke, you're going have a whole gamut of24 population living there. You might have teenagers, you25 42 might have people smoking up there, even if it's not1 permitted officially. What type of fire mitigation do2 you have in your architectural plans?3 THE WITNESS: The building is built to meet4 or exceed all of the code requirements. So the5 buildings fully sprinklered and --6 THE PUBLIC: But that's the interior of the7 building.8 THE WITNESS: That is correct.9 THE PUBLIC: But I'm talking about the roof.10 You got teenagers potentially smoking on the roof.11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, the management12 company will take care of this by the agreement.13 THE PUBLIC: But he's the architect.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am. Ma'am.15 THE PUBLIC: I really do want to understand16 --17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The architect builds it.18 He doesn't stand there and prosecute.19 THE PUBLIC: But I didn't hear the materials20 that are being used.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, the goal of the22 meeting is that the planning board hears how the23 buildings going to built and the structure. The24 management company will be code enforcement in the25 43 building.1 THE PUBLIC: I'm just trying to make the2 planning board aware that there is a fire hazard unless3 the architect, Mr. Appel --4 MR. PLOCKER: Is there a question.5 THE PUBLIC: --

in the25 43 building.1 THE PUBLIC: I'm just trying to make the2 planning board aware that there is a fire hazard unless3 the architect, Mr. Appel --4 MR. PLOCKER: Is there a question.5 THE PUBLIC: -- defines what it is --6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The buildings --7 THE PUBLIC: What is the standard of fire8 mitigation. That's the question.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The buildings meet or10 exceed the New Jersey State fire code.11 THE PUBLIC: He said internally.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The building, I want to be13 very clear, the building is going to be evaluated by the14 building department of the Township of West Orange stem15 to stern. The building and materials will meet or16 exceed the fire code in the State of New Jersey.17 THE PUBLIC: And one more question.18 Can you go back to the building that has the19 12-foot exposure of the foundation, just so we can see20 that again.21 THE WITNESS: I think it's in this first22 packet. I believe it was, I can tell you what the23 exhibit was called. It was called A-3 dated 8/14/24.24 Yes, there it is. Bingo. You got it.25 44 So there's the reference line.1 THE PUBLIC: Can you please identify which2 building?3 THE WITNESS: That's Building D.4 THE PUBLIC: This is Building D?5 THE WITNESS: That's Building D.6 THE PUBLIC: And where is it 12 feet as the7 exposure of the foundation that's going to be visible?8 At what elevation.9 THE WITNESS: So this blue line in here that10 we've drawn is what the line would need to be to make11 this conforming.12 THE PUBLIC: And that's the western13 elevation?14 THE WITNESS: That's the western elevation.15 THE PUBLIC: So part of the building facing16 the west has a 12-foot foundation exposure, is what17 you're telling us?18 THE WITNESS: No, what I'm mentioning here19 is that the, this line, the ordinance measures building20 height from this first floor line. So we have an21 exposed foundation over here and when you balance off22 and do all the calculations per the ordinance, is that23 this is the conforming line. So we have a little bit24 that's left on the base of the building to, to make this25

09/27/2024 06:14:01 AM Page 45 to 48 of 180 12 of 71 sheets 45 conforming for the ordinance.1 THE PUBLIC: Right. You said that little2 bit is 12 feet?3 THE WITNESS: No, the entire height of that4 floor, if you go to the left. So you, if we can zoom in5 over here. The entire height of this floor is 12 feet,6 that as you can see this is a fractional piece of that,7 of that 12 feet.8 THE PUBLIC: So, I'm trying to understand.9 THE WITNESS: It's very misleading and I10 understand the confusion, but this was the cleanest way11 I could represent to you the difference between12 conforming and what we're proposing in here.13 THE PUBLIC: So under the first floor is 1214 feet of foundation?15 THE WITNESS: Typically. However that, as I16 gave testimony, some of the buildings -- I apologize.17 THE PUBLIC: But the one with the most18 exposed foundation, that's what I'm trying to visualize.19 Does that have 12 feet of exposed foundation?20 THE WITNESS: Every buildings different.21 THE PUBLIC: The one with the maximum22 exposure of foundation is the question here.23 THE WITNESS: So that's a good -- I'm going24 to say probably the building, either C or B probably at25 46 some point has more exposure than D does. So over here.1 So based on where the grade is falling off, this is2 Building A that we're looking over here that there's,3 from below this portion of the building, this would4 probably be your, one of your worst case scenarios.5 THE PUBLIC: And that's facing south?6 THE WITNESS: This is Building A.7 THE PUBLIC: You just told me it's facing8 south?9 THE WITNESS: A's facing south.10 THE PUBLIC: So I live south, so if I,11 looking at the building -- if I'm looking at this12 building coming in from Warner Road --13 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure you're --14 THE PUBLIC: -- I'm seeing 12 feet of15 foundation is what you're saying?16 MR. PLOCKER: Can we point out where she17 lives, so we have a point of reference.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, can you tell us19 where you live so we have an idea of the relationship.20 THE PUBLIC: I live in The Grand, but I'm21 saying, which is south of Block 179. But I'm saying22 even if we're coming in from Warner Road, I'm looking at23 it from the south. I'm coming in from the south, this24 is what I'm going to see, is 12 feet of foundation?25 47 THE WITNESS: You're talking, your, I'm not1 sure that you're going to see any of this because2 there's

th. I'm coming in from the south, this24 is what I'm going to see, is 12 feet of foundation?25 47 THE WITNESS: You're talking, your, I'm not1 sure that you're going to see any of this because2 there's so much other stuff that is going to be between3 your view and --4 THE PUBLIC: No --5 THE WITNESS: -- this area.6 THE PUBLIC: -- I don't even mean from my7 house. I mean I'm driving up to this development, this8 buildings going to have 12 feet of foundation that I'm9 looking at.10 MR. PLOCKER: Larry, how far is Building A11 from any point of The Grand? Do we know that. If you12 know that.13 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.14 THE PUBLIC: I'm just saying, going into15 this development. This development is being built,16 going into Warner Road, forget where I live. It's a17 southern exposure is what you're telling me.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's the testimony. The19 testimony is that this area of the building is going to20 be screened.21 THE WITNESS: This area of the building22 below here, we have handled this both with architectural23 screening and landscaping as well. What is interesting,24 even from the lowest point in here, so forget about what25 48 is exposed, and the foundation is actually part of the1 building. It's not part of, it's not a, just a2 foundation, but it's part of the building where the3 parking is. If you measure the building height from the4 lowest point of exposure we're still conforming.5 THE PUBLIC: I'm not talking, I didn't read6 the ordinance. I just want to visualize how high is the7 building, how much is going to be foundation and is it8 exposed foundation, are you going to have stones. Is it9 going to be structurally cosmetic appealing or am I10 going to be looking at 12 feet of concrete and then five11 feet of apartment building on top of it?12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Do you have a picture13 graph of the building with screening you can show her so14 she can see the where the garage is?15 That's the one.16 THE WITNESS: So this portion of the17 building in here, this is Building C facing the18 clubhouse. It's an internal view, but as you can see19 here's it's not exposed foundation. It's all part of20 the building. It's been designed, we designed not one21 side to be building but all four sides. And we did this22 in concert to make the grading to work with the existing23 grading and layered landscaping and other architectural.24 So I'm not sure you're

1 side to be building but all four sides. And we did this22 in concert to make the grading to work with the existing23 grading and layered landscaping and other architectural.24 So I'm not sure you're looking at this. You --25

13 of 71 sheets Page 49 to 52 of 180 09/27/2024 06:14:01 AM 49 THE PUBLIC: So what you're saying is it's1 not just exposed foundation of concrete?2 THE WITNESS: That's correct.3 THE PUBLIC: And the part that is, are you4 going to have any kind of cosmetic structural --5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am. Ma'am. Your time6 is up. Thank you. Thank you very much.7 Mr. Klein.8 MR. KLEIN: So Mr. Appel, so what's the9 height from the bottom of the vehicle to the top of the,10 whatever you measured, the top of the roof surface?11 Give me a ballpark. It's one, two -- it's six stories12 high. Six times 12, 70? Not even.13 THE WITNESS: I think it would be under 70.14 MR. KLEIN: Under 70. And you're allowed to15 be 75?16 THE WITNESS: 75 actually measured from this17 point.18 MR. KLEIN: Okay.19 THE WITNESS: So we're way, way under.20 MR. KLEIN: Well, in our ordinance it says21 the word, exposed foundation. Is there a foundation? I22 know there's a foundation to the building, but is it23 like a walkout basement on a house?24 THE WITNESS: It's very similar to a walkout25 50 basement on a house.1 MR. KLEIN: But it's going to be finished.2 It's not going to look like a basement and clapboard3 siding above?4 THE WITNESS: No. There's no exposed5 masonry.6 MR. KLEIN: Okay.7 THE WITNESS: And so exposed concrete. It's8 all finished just like it was facade.9 MR. KLEIN: Okay. Thank you.10 THE WITNESS: Regardless of whether it's a11 unit behind there or parking lot behind there.12 MR. KLEIN: Okay. Thank you.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.14 You're up, sir. Sir, all the way in the15 back, you're the last person. You're the last person to16 speak. Go ahead, sir.17 THE PUBLIC: My name is Howard Ruce, R-U-C-E18 from West Orange.19 Mr. Appel, you didn't assign any specific20 reason why the rooftop amenity, as you called it, was21 selected to be on Building D, is that correct?22 THE WITNESS: No, not correct specifically.23 THE PUBLIC: So if you were asked to24 redesign this building or to redesign any of these25 51 buildings to put that roof top amenity on one of the1 other buildings, would that be possible?2 THE WITNESS: Possible but not what we're3 proposing.4 THE PUBLIC: Okay.5 Can you then tell me why you're proposing it6 on Building D?7 THE WITNESS: It was decided that this8 building was going to have the rooftop amenities. It9 also has, the only building has internal amenities and10 we felt

e why you're proposing it6 on Building D?7 THE WITNESS: It was decided that this8 building was going to have the rooftop amenities. It9 also has, the only building has internal amenities and10 we felt that was, the combination, the correct11 combination. So this building has more internal12 amenities and has the roof amenities as well.13 THE PUBLIC: But the other amenities, like14 your dog spa or dog park and some of the other things15 are in the other buildings, correct? Or closer to the16 other buildings.17 THE WITNESS: Correct.18 THE PUBLIC: But theoretically it could be19 redesigned to have the rooftop away from Howell and away20 from Building D, is that correct?21 THE WITNESS: Theoretically. Theoretically,22 yes.23 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.24 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.25 52 THE PUBLIC: Rachel Klein, K-L-E-I-N.1 Howell Drive.2 I think we could just all say Building D,3 probably the goal is to try to get the city views and4 that's probably why that no one is changing Building D,5 we could stop asking about Building D. Building D is6 obviously the grand building that you're aiming for,7 that's why that type of building has different housing8 units as well.9 I just want to talk about the ridge line.10 Mr. Plocker talked about the dotted line versus the11 ridge line. There's an easement very clearly marked on12 the map and you can very easily see from the easement13 where Building D and how close Building D gets from what14 we like to call the ridge line, which is really a15 drop-off cliff and some of these points where the ridge16 lines actually exposed --17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, ma'am, you're18 testifying.19 THE PUBLIC: Sorry.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I need you to ask a21 question, please.22 THE PUBLIC: Okay. I just wanted to clear23 it up because it was said --24 MR. PLOCKER: And the applicant takes issue25

09/27/2024 06:14:01 AM Page 53 to 56 of 180 14 of 71 sheets 53 to the characteristic of the ridge line as a cliff.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, ma'am, please ask a2 question. No more characterizations. Please ask a3 question. Okay.4 THE PUBLIC: I don't have a question.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.6 THE PUBLIC: How you doing today. Eric7 Sampson, Bakley Terrace.8 On the first night you testified you had9 mentioned about the parking lot. That there were things10 that architects or buildings repeat when they work out11 well, so typically they keep doing them over and over,12 do you remember?13 THE WITNESS: With regard to maybe tandem14 parking, is that what you're --15 THE PUBLIC: I think so. You basically said16 this concept that people are repeating things over and17 over.18 THE WITNESS: Yes.19 THE PUBLIC: Can you give me three examples20 in this project that aren't from repeated projects that21 are relatively new ideas?22 THE WITNESS: I think this project was23 designed specifically for this, you know -- this project24 was designed specifically for this location. It was25 54 not, it doesn't exist anywhere else.1 THE PUBLIC: My understanding, the point is,2 the best practice gets repeated. So there's probably3 some things that weren't best practices here that4 haven't been repeated that are relatively new. So5 there's a good chance that there's some things that are6 going to go wrong, that builders don't repeat, right?7 THE WITNESS: I couldn't --8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry, I don't9 understand the question. The goal is, at the end of the10 day, is that the planning board understand the question.11 So please, I'm trying to understand it so he can answer12 so we can use the information.13 THE PUBLIC: Sure. Understand.14 So when he was talking about the parking lot15 he had mentioned that when something works out well they16 use it over and over again. So many times things17 probably don't work out well. So I'm asking for18 examples of situations where in this project19 specifically there are things that they haven't done in20 other projects that they're repeating but rather they're21 relatively new concepts that are being tested out.22 There are many situations that people testified already23 about or asked questions about that things that have24 gone wrong in projects or they broke bedrock and cracked25 55 and thought it worked out and it didn't. So what