June 4, 2025, Planning Board Regular Meeting Transcript - WEHI

1 on your chart?2 Well, some of it, anything outside of the3 A. development footprint will continue toward the wetland.4 But anything below the ridge line that would normally or5 currently flow toward the wetland would be collected.6 Now, those four blue arrows on the left side,7 Q. those would be redirected?8 The upper part of those arrows, yes. Because it9 A. starts at the ridge over here somewhere.10 Okay.11 Q. So this is the part that flows.12 A. That's why there's more drainage area lost on the13 Q. eastern side than the western?14 That's correct.15 A. Okay. Thank you.16 Q. And I see the pink arrows on the lower left-hand17 corner going into the basin, you see that?18 Here?19 A. Yes. And then there is an arrow going off the20 Q. chart, that's going back into the stream at the bottom,21 is that correct?22 That's correct.23 A. So I understand you to be saying that the water24 Q. that would normally flow across into the wetland is25 32 being deviated away down to the bottom, is that correct?1 That's correct.2 A. Now, if we look at the center again, we see, if3 Q. you look at the lower part of the chart in the center4 there is a speckled area in gray, that's a wetland,5 correct?6 In the center, yes. The stippled area.7 A. Yeah, the stippled area. That's what you look8 Q. for.9 Now, there are blue arrows, again, I think10 there's four of them going in the center right to that11 stippled area, do you see that?12 Yes.13 A. Okay.14 Q. That represents the current flow of water into15 the wetland, is that correct?16 That's correct.17 A. Okay.18 Q. Now, looking at where those arrows begin, what19 would be the difference in water flow after this is20 constructed based on the pink arrows?21 Well, the surface load is all collected by the22 A. stormwater system and redirected to different BMP's.23 There would be impervious gradient parking lots to this24 basin down here.25

9 of 41 sheets Page 33 to 36 of 101 06/20/2025 06:55:03 AM 33 Well, but there will no longer be a stippled area1 Q. in the lower center, is that correct?2 That's correct.3 A. And, again, on the far right side, again, the far4 Q. eastern part of the drainage area there's a series of5 blue arrows, again, going to the stippled area. Would6 your testimony as to that area be the same?7 Yes, it would be.8 A. Now, what is the affect ecologically of losing a9 Q. substantial portion of the normal water that drains to10 these wetlands today?11 Well, as I said, one, it's less water. Less12 A. surface water runoff getting into the wetlands. But the13 groundwater hydrology is equally as important, if not14 more important and some of the areas it's not just15 cutoff. Now I will give an example. Like the16 foreground water flow it would be following the same17 general path as the blue arrows but you will have less18 surface flow, but this building, just to fill a large19 structure like this, is going to completely eliminate20 ground water flow towards that way.21 The center wetland at the bottom?22 Q. Correct.23 A. Okay.24 Q. Again, you're referring to the winged orange25 34 structure in the middle, correct?1 That's correct.2 A. Now, so you're saying that, if you go back to the3 Q. chart with the, I think it was an orange fragipan line.4 Do you recall that chart? That's it.5 You say the ground water movement, now I see a6 word that says, permeable layer, and then there's a gray7 area with an arrow, then there's the orange fragipan8 line. What does this relate to in terms of groundwater9 movement to the wetland and streams, how does this10 relate?11 Because of the restriction provided by the12 A. fragipan, that's even though water might move downward13 and in surface layers once it hits the fragipan it14 starts to move laterally and that's represented in the15 gray color as saturated.16 Is this what you mean by groundwater movement?17 Q. Right.18 A. Continue, sorry.19 Q. And so the discharge point there would be similar20 to the discharge point on the chart where the stippled21 area in the center is, is that correct?22 Yeah, this groundwater flow follows a similar23 A. path as the blue arrows. It's just a slower moving24 water that the rainwater peculates into the ground and25 35 then moves over the fragipan slowly down the slope.1 Now, I think we all understand the

path as the blue arrows. It's just a slower moving24 water that the rainwater peculates into the ground and25 35 then moves over the fragipan slowly down the slope.1 Now, I think we all understand the groundwater2 Q. movement because stormwater goes across the site.3 Yes.4 A. In terms of losing the groundwater, you referred5 Q. to construction of the building, what does that do6 physically to the movement of groundwater and its7 ability to do that? Can you explain that.8 Well, in the orange building, again, we're9 A. talking about kind of somewhat a U-shaped building, this10 blue arrow is the water that would be below that would11 hit the building and tend to mound on the upgraded side12 and then tend to be a shadow. There's no water on the13 downgraded side. So the building would essentially14 cutoff all that groundwater.15 And by U-shaped building you mean the one in the16 Q. center, there's another one on the upper part of the17 chart?18 Correct. The one that's in the center on the19 A. south.20 Thank you.21 Q. And now, when wetland areas lose say 28 percent,22 33 percent, whatever they be, of the drainage, what does23 that typically do to the ecology of those sites?24 Well, the one key thing is there would be less25 A. 36 water to drive the hydrology that makes their wetland.1 So you can anticipate some of those current wetland2 areas will be dryer and especially the ones that are3 more dead will probably come up upland. They'll no4 longer enough water to drive hydrology into the wetland.5 And so when they change their wetland to the6 Q. upland what does that do to the flora for example?7 Typically would they grow there?8 It would be a change in the plant species9 A. composition of the wetland.10 And does that affect the flora?11 Q. There's an element of that, especially in the12 A. wetter parts that a lot of the variable chemical13 reactions that occur in wetlands occur when they're14 saturated. An anaerobic or anaerobic conditions that15 allow oxygen and that's where nutrients are transformed.16 If they're dryer there are periods it won't be as long17 and so that function ends up being negatively impacted.18 You when you were describing the types of soil on19 Q. the site, in those three types of soil, and you20 mentioned there was a source, but I couldn't quite hear21 you. Could you define the source of the information22 about the soil composition on

on19 Q. the site, in those three types of soil, and you20 mentioned there was a source, but I couldn't quite hear21 you. Could you define the source of the information22 about the soil composition on the site? What is the23 source for that information.24 For the mapping and the information?25 A.

06/20/2025 06:55:03 AM Page 37 to 40 of 101 10 of 41 sheets 37 Yes.1 Q. U.S. Department of Agriculture Web Soil Survey2 A. and U.S. Department of Agriculture Official Soil3 Description.4 And the information you took is that specific to5 Q. this site?6 The official soil description just describes that7 A. soil series. The Web Soil Survey map has a little more8 detail. There are some for Essex County but not9 necessarily specifically to the site.10 But for the vicinity?11 Q. Correct.12 A. MR. AFRAN: Just need one moment, please.13 Mr. Chairman, I think we should just offer to mark the14 slide presentation. I don't remember what number we're15 up to and Jamilet, I haven't given her all the exhibits16 yet, so I have absolutely no idea what number we're up17 to.18 MS. McGOVERN: We are on 0-14.19 MR. AFRAN: Thank you.20 So we would offer that as Exhibit O-14 for21 the objector.22 So that concludes my questions for now,23 unless anything prompts anything further. Thank you.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you very much for25 38 your presentation.1 Could you go to the mapping. See Howell2 Drive and as an expert is this a unique piece of land3 that is not found anywhere else in the surrounding area4 territory? There was a map that you had of the5 property. That one. So is this a unique piece of land,6 nowhere else to be found or are --7 THE PUBLIC: Can't hear you.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Is this a unique piece of9 land similar with the fragipan or are the other areas10 contiguous to this similar?11 THE WITNESS: Adjacent to this?12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Correct.13 THE WITNESS: No.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: No which?15 THE WITNESS: The land adjacent to this16 property are all developed.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: But initially we are18 talking, I am asking before it was developed, Howell19 Drive, West Highland Golf Course was similar. Could20 this be a unique piece of land that was not similar to21 all those other pieces of land or your expert opinion is22 the surrounding land is similar to this land?23 THE WITNESS: If you're asking24 historically --25 39 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Correct.1 THE WITNESS: -- are the soils on the ridge2 similar?3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Right.4 THE WITNESS: My answer is probably, yes.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.6 Okay. Mayor McCartney, do you have any7 questions?8 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Chairman, thank you.9 So I am trying too make sense of this. With10 Mr. Gallagher, your testimony that, yes,

HAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.6 Okay. Mayor McCartney, do you have any7 questions?8 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Chairman, thank you.9 So I am trying too make sense of this. With10 Mr. Gallagher, your testimony that, yes, the buildings11 will in fact displace the water.12 MR. AFRAN: Mayor, I couldn't hear.13 MAYOR McCARTNEY: I am just trying to14 reiterate that Mr. Gallagher's testimony was saying15 that, yes, the project will displace the water. But it16 would seem to me that being an overlay zone on what the17 stormwater management plan is, on how is that water18 being redirected and we don't see that. So do you19 understand what I am saying?20 MR. AFRAN: I could follow-up.21 MAYOR McCARTNEY: I understand it's being22 displaced, but maybe it was the beginning of the year23 about stormwater and stormwater management.24 MR. AFRAN: I think I could help by25 40 following up with a question, if that's all right.1 Could you please go back to the map with the arrows.2 THE WITNESS: Which one?3 MR. AFRAN: The map with the arrows. Blue4 and violate arrows. Okay. Now, is it possible to zoom5 in little bit on that. Thank you.6 Now, on this map you're showing the pink7 arrows demonstrating water going to certain defined8 places, correct?9 Correct.10 A. Now, looks like conduit or some kind of a11 Q. semicircle, is that correct?12 Yes.13 A. Okay.14 Q. Now, then there are detention basins built into15 the, say on the bottom where you pointed to and there's16 several. This is part of the stormwater management17 plan, isn't it?18 It is, yes.19 A. So these features that are marked here with the20 Q. arrows go to -- are reflective of the stormwater21 management plan, is that fair to say?22 It is, yes.23 A. MR. AFRAN: So Mayor, I think that in a24 sense there's an overlay through this because he is25

11 of 41 sheets Page 41 to 44 of 101 06/20/2025 06:55:03 AM 41 showing that water movement, after the stormwater1 management plan is replaced, changes the natural flow2 and the pink arrows reflect it going into the management3 system. So I am not sure if that's what you're driving4 at but I think it does give an overlay, to a great5 degree.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I want to add for clarity,7 was that the stormwater management plan that was sent to8 the DEP for their evaluation?9 MR. AFRAN: That would be the same10 stormwater management plan.11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So this represents what12 was sent to the DEP for evaluation?13 MR. AFRAN: Except for one thing.14 In Mr. Gallagher's review of the stormwater15 Q. management plan, what is their focus in your view?16 They're supposed to look at compliance with17 A. N.J.A.C. 7:8.18 Now, what's the point of their analysis? Are19 Q. they looking at wetlands, water quality, drinking water,20 what are they looking at?21 One, compliance and two, water quality.22 A. Okay.23 Q. So when you say, water quality, they're referring24 to the quality of the water after recharge, is that25 42 correct?1 Or after treatment through any BMP, be it2 A. recharge or for quantity management over peak flow3 management.4 Okay.5 Q. So on this particular site we're going to see6 water, stormwater going into say detention basins in the7 lower left-hand corner, that's one example?8 Right.9 A. The water then infiltrates eventually out of10 Q. their and then goes to the very far corner where the11 arrow points to the bottom of that stream. Now, the12 recharge analysis by the state is directed to the13 efficiency of that aspect of the management system, is14 that correct?15 In theory, yes.16 A. Yes. I am not saying whether right or wrong.17 Q. MR. PLOCKER: I'm going to object. These18 seem like questions directed towards an engineer.19 MR. AFRAN: No, I am not done.20 MR. PLOCKER: Stormwater design -- I want to21 state my objection for the record.22 MR. AFRAN: I'm not finished --23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran.24 So now they're looking at the effect of25 Q. 43 stormwater management system on returning water back to1 the drinking water system to the streams and rivers, is2 that correct?3 Can you repeat that.4 A. No. They're looking at the well, I think I asked5 Q. the question.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ask him a question don't7 tell him, them. Please ask him a

and rivers, is2 that correct?3 Can you repeat that.4 A. No. They're looking at the well, I think I asked5 Q. the question.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ask him a question don't7 tell him, them. Please ask him a question.8 MR. AFRAN: I agree.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.10 Outside of looking at that the return of the11 Q. water back into the river system, is the DEP's analysis12 going to the quality of wetlands post construction?13 No.14 A. Okay.15 Q. MR. AFRAN: And therefore there's -- Mr.16 Chairman, there are -- our position is that even though17 DEP did an analysis on recharge that's not an analysis18 of wetlands post construction. And so that relates to19 the environmental analysis.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: This is what your21 hypothesizing, what DEP did or did not do?22 MR. AFRAN: No, I am not hypothesizing. The23 expert who does permitting said so.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Did you read DEP25 44 evaluation of the site?1 THE WITNESS: We do not.2 MR. AFRAN: I think --3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He said, we do not.4 MR. AFRAN: You said you did read --5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Did you read it. You did6 you it when doing the evaluation of the site, correct?7 So you said he did, he said he didn't.8 MR. AFRAN: No, I didn't say he did. I said9 he's an expert and what DEP does in terms of recharge10 analysis.11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So my question was, did12 you read what DEP said about this particular site?13 THE WITNESS: Their permits pretty brief, it14 doesn't describe the analysis just their conclusion.15 And I am not sure this Board knows but we did send a16 letter to the DEP requesting that permit be suspended17 based on inaccurate information, and like I said, we18 have a seasonal high water table below the wetland19 elevation. Just elements like that, that don't make20 sense. So we made a request from the DEP to look at21 this, absolutely.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Did they?23 THE WITNESS: They just got the letter a24 couple weeks ago.25

06/20/2025 06:55:03 AM Page 45 to 48 of 101 12 of 41 sheets 45 MR. AFRAN: There's been no activity yet. I1 think the applicant responded and there's no activity2 yet from DEP.3 MR. PLOCKER: For the record, I believe, and4 Mr. Afran can correct me if I am wrong, I believe that5 letter was sent after the filing of the Notice of Appeal6 in the Appellate Division --7 MR. AFRAN: Correct.8 MR. PLOCKER: -- of all the permits. So why9 would the DEP, and Ms. McGovern can correct me if I10 wrong, the DEP shouldn't even have jurisdiction over the11 permits.12 MS. McGOVERN: Well, that's my13 understanding. They made a request to the DEP they did14 it and now there's an appeal in front of the Appellate15 Division. So now it's under their jurisdiction.16 MR. AFRAN: Not necessarily.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Let's go back to the18 original question. You stated that you're not sure what19 the DEP did in their analysis. They only came to a20 conclusion.21 THE WITNESS: Correct.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I am asking him.23 THE WITNESS: Yes, the permit described24 their conclusion.25 46 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. So their analysis1 may be done by the normal process that they do of an2 analysis of a site, is that correct?3 THE WITNESS: We don't know if they used the4 normal process.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So is it, in your expert6 opinion, does the DEP in areas not using the normal7 process use something that is more or less?8 THE WITNESS: Well, I can answer your9 question this way. We were surprised that the things10 DEP missed in the stormwater management plan that11 affects how the basin will function.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So the answer to the13 question is, nobody here is 100 percent sure what the14 criteria were the DEP used in the analysis but only in15 the conclusion?16 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Chairman, hold on a second.17 The criteria don't change for each application. He is18 an expert in permitting in this field and he is19 testifying that the criteria used, the analysis used20 focuses on water quality subsequent to recharge. That's21 the standard DEP uses and he testified to that. The22 criteria don't change for each application. He is an23 expert in that and says when DEP does stormwater24 analysis they're looking at recharge in terms of water25 47 quality following the return of the water to the system.1 And he said specifically they do not look at wetlands2 health following construction. And so the

re looking at recharge in terms of water25 47 quality following the return of the water to the system.1 And he said specifically they do not look at wetlands2 health following construction. And so the criteria3 don't change each time we do this. He's saying DEP's4 analysis does not go to these environmental points.5 That doesn't change each time and then let me ask a6 follow up question, if I can.7 In reading DEP's stormwater approval as you8 Q. described it, do you see any reference there commenting9 on wetland conditions post construction?10 No.11 A. So the DEP did not comment on in it and their12 Q. decision administratively that he read is where they put13 their findings. There aren't a separate set of findings14 somewhere else that they don't share with us. So we15 know two things. One, an expert who works on permitting16 in this area says that they focus on water quality17 following a recharge. And when reading DEP's stormwater18 analysis they don't address wetlands health at all. So19 we have two things. One, this is not what they focus on20 normally in terms of criteria.21 And two, they did not address this in their22 findings. So in answer to the Chairs question, they23 indeed made a decision but it doesn't go to these24 environmental issues dealing with wetland conditions and25 48 health. That's our point. That this is not something1 that is superceded by DEP. This is an environmental2 question and to the extent environmental questions are3 relevant here, and we said they are for what reason we4 have in our colloquy, this testimony is relevant.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. MacNeill.6 MR. MacNEILL: I definitely have a question7 on, have you identified any noncompliance with the8 freshwater rules specifically towards the drainage area9 towards the portion of the sloped wetland area?10 THE WITNESS: Remember, the freshwater11 wetlands permit on this site were really close so that12 would subsume the freshwater wetlands.13 MR. MacNEILL: So the freshwater rules do14 not regulate the flow of surface runoff to specific15 sections of a slope or wetland area?16 THE WITNESS: No.17 MR. MacNEILL: So I guess, just a follow up18 question. Would a recommendation if you are the19 applicant be simply adding addition that stormwater20 discharge upstream to ensure the ecological impacts are21 avoided?22 THE WITNESS: I think the bigger issue here23 is to relook at the soils