June 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

1 of 70 sheets Page 1 to 4 of 175 08/07/2025 02:56:42 PM 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 TOWNSHIP OF WEST ORANGE DEPARTMENT OF PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT MONDAY, JUNE 30, 2025 6:30 P.M. RE; PB-24-01 WEST ESSEX HIGHLANDS, INC. BOARD MEMBERS: ROBERT BAGOFF, Chairman SUSAN McCARTNEY, Mayor JERRY GUARINO, Vice Chairman KEN ALPER SUSAN SCARPA, Council Person WILLIAM WILKES LORI KAPFERER JOHN CARDOZA RYAN MacNEILL, Engineer GERARD HAIZEL, Planner JAMILET BAQUERIZO VITE, Board Secretary GENIECE GARY-ADAMS, Zoning Official JOSEPH FAGAN, Zoom Moderator WITNESSES: MARK SEEL, Geotechnical Engineer MAYOR EDWARD DAVIS MAREA DePALMA RACHEL KLEIN FISHMAN COURT REPORTING AGENCY 89 HEADQUARTERS PLAZA NORTH 4 SPEEDWELL AVENUE, SUITE 1440 MORRISTOWN, NEW JERSEY 07960 (973) 285-5331 - FAX - (732) 605-9391 2 A P P E A R A N C E S :1 H U T T , S H I M A N O W I T Z & P L O C K E R , E S Q S .2 B Y B R Y A N D . P L O C K E R , E S Q . B p l o c k e r @ h u t t s h i m . c o m3 4 5 9 A M B O Y A V E N U E W O O D B R I D G E , N E W J E R S E Y 0 7 0 9 54 A p p e a r i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e A p p l i c a n t 5 G A C C I O N E & P O M A C O , E S Q S .6 B Y D I A N A P . M c G O V E R N , E S Q . O N E B O L A N D D R I V E , S U I T E 1 0 27 W E S T O R A N G E , N E W J E R S E Y 0 7 0 5 2 A p p e a r i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d8 9 B R U C E I . A F R A N , E S Q .10 1 0 B R A E B R U N D R I V E P R I N C E T O N , N E W J E R S E Y 0 8 5 4 011 A p p e a r i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e O b j e c t o r , W e C a r e N J C o r p .12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 I N D E X O F E X H I B I T S2 E X H I B I T D E S C R I P T I O N3 0 - 1 5 T R A C T E N B E R G M A P4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 C H A I R M A N B A G O F F : P B - 2 4 - 0 1 W e s t E s s e x1 H i g h l a n d s , I n c , B l o c k 1 7 9 L o t 3 2 Z o n e I H - 1 . W a r n e r2 R o a d .3 T h e a p p l i c a n t i s p r o p o s i n g t o d e v e l o p a 4 9 6 u n i t4 i n c l u s i o n a r y m u l t i f a m i l y r e s i d e n t i a l d e v e l o p m e n t o n a5 v a c a n t 1 2 0 a c r e p r o p e r t y i n t h e n o r t h w e s t c o r n e r o f t h e6 T o w n s h i p .7 F o r t h e a p p l i c a n t , M r . P l o c k e r .8 M R . P L O C K E R : G o o d e v e n i n g e v e r y b o d y . B r y a n9 P l o c k e r o n

h w e s t c o r n e r o f t h e6 T o w n s h i p .7 F o r t h e a p p l i c a n t , M r . P l o c k e r .8 M R . P L O C K E R : G o o d e v e n i n g e v e r y b o d y . B r y a n9 P l o c k e r o n b e h a l f o f t h e a p p l i c a n t , W e s t E s s e x10 H i g h l a n d s , I n c .11 D o w e h a v e a n y h o u s e k e e p i n g b u s i n e s s t o12 d i s c u s s ?13 M R . A F R A N : Y e s , a l i t t l e b i t .14 M R . P L O C K E R : J u l y m e e t i n g s .15 M R . A F R A N : R i g h t .16 M S . M c G O V E R N : O h , y o u w a n t t o d o t h a t n o w ?17 M R . P L O C K E R : I t ' s u p t o t h e C h a i r m a n .18 C H A I R M A N B A G O F F : T h a t ' s f i n e . Y o u a l l h a v e19 d a t e s ?20 M S . M c G O V E R N : S o w e h a v e s u g g e s t e d a n o t h e r21 s p e c i a l m e e t i n g , I h a v e n o t - - w e h a v e n ' t p o l l e d t h e22 b o a r d m e m b e r s t o s e e t h e i r a v a i l a b i l i t y , b u t I ' m t r y i n g23 t o f i n d o u t f r o m t h e a p p l i c a n t ' s a t t o r n e y , M r . A f r a n - -24 M R . A F R A N : O b j e c t o r ' s a t t o r n e y .25

08/07/2025 02:56:42 PM Page 5 to 8 of 175 2 of 70 sheets 5 MS. McGOVERN: Objectors attorney. To what1 dates would be available for those Wednesday's, because2 we do have a temporary, I think, reservation on this3 room so we can continue to do them.4 I know Mr. Plocker, you told me every5 Wednesday is good for you. All of them?6 MR. PLOCKER: That's correct. Beginning7 July 9 through July 30.8 MS. McGOVERN: And Mr. Afran?9 MR. AFRAN: I could do every Wednesday, but10 I don't think, I can't -- I've been trying to ascertain11 the dates when our experts are coming in and there's the12 traffic engineer, the planner and potentially after he13 hears this gentleman's testimony, a geophysics response.14 So I am trying to get dates together and I don't have15 them, unfortunately. I would hope -- I would, I'm free16 any Wednesday. I would almost rather not meet next17 Wednesday only so we get a break because frankly, it's18 not for vacations purposes, I have briefs to write. But19 I would, I am free any Wednesday but I prefer to have a20 little gap between now and the 16th. I am trying to get21 dates. Now, I am thinking by the 16th I might be able22 to do that. I will probably know more tomorrow or23 Thursday.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran, how many more25 6 people do you want to have present before the Planning1 Board?2 MR. AFRAN: There's definitely three3 experts, there's possible a fourth. I've been trying to4 ascertain that from one of my clients.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Can they all be here on6 one night?7 MR. AFRAN: I hear a voice that's telling me8 no way. So based on the voice I have to say no. I9 really can't evaluate yet. I mean, you know, a traffic10 engineer, a planner, the geotechnical response, if11 there's any, probably won't be that long, I imagine.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We can't have a meeting13 that goes for an hour and a half. We need to use the14 full evening.15 MR. AFRAN: I think, I know we will use the16 full evening when the experts are here, I don't think it17 would be done in one night. So when I get that date18 ascertained we will be here the whole night. I just --19 I don't want to do one hour and a half either. Frankly20 it's very, I sympathize with all of you when you do all21 these meetings all year. It's very difficult,22 especially balancing other cases. So when we get those23 experts dates ascertained it will be a whole night and24 probably still

f you when you do all21 these meetings all year. It's very difficult,22 especially balancing other cases. So when we get those23 experts dates ascertained it will be a whole night and24 probably still spillover. But it's not going to be an25 7 hour and then we're done.1 MS. McGOVERN: We need another night to2 preserve the notice.3 MR. AFRAN: I would certainly say the 16th.4 Wednesday, July 16.5 MR. PLOCKER: That would work. Can we just6 ascertain, Chairman Bagoff, are there any objector7 witnesses here tonight to testify?8 MR. AFRAN: Yes.9 MR. PLOCKER: Okay. Who is that?10 MR. AFRAN: Paul Tractenberg, Rachel Klein,11 Mayor Ed Davis and Marea DePalma.12 MR. PLOCKER: Okay. And my understanding13 was that the planner was coming tonight, I believe that14 was represented.15 MR. AFRAN: That's what I was originally16 told but he can't. So that's one of the ones that's up17 in the air.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Let's get the last19 two Wednesday's, the 16th and the following Wednesday20 and finish it up.21 MR. AFRAN: There's three Wednesday's in22 July.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: 16th and 23rd.24 MR. KLEIN: Five Wednesdays in July.25 8 MR. AFRAN: Well, I meant after that.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Use those two to finish up2 the case, please. That's what we're going to work on.3 MR. AFRAN: I couldn't hear you.4 MS. McGOVERN: All right. So we're5 tentatively looking for July 16 and July 23. I have to6 find out from the board if we have a quorum from those7 who are here.8 MR. AFRAN: Can I step out for one minute,9 I'm sorry, I want to clarify this.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go right ahead.11 (Whereupon, a short recess is taken.)12 MR. AFRAN: I'm trying to ascertain when13 these experts will be here. I believe --14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: One second.15 Back on the record.16 MR. AFRAN: I believe shooting for the 16th17 as the next meeting will be productive in that respect.18 I do not know whether these experts or all our witnesses19 will finish in two nights. There are two additional20 individuals who are expected to testify. They won't be21 massively long but I don't know we'll be finished in two22 nights. So I would suggest within the next two days I'm23 going to try and get commitments from the experts I've24 been talking to on what dates they will be here and25

3 of 70 sheets Page 9 to 12 of 175 08/07/2025 02:56:42 PM 9 hopefully that will be July 16 and I should be able in1 two days or so. I'm hoping to communicate with Diana2 with more specific information but I would look to the3 16th as a date when at least two experts will be here.4 I'm hoping the geotechnical engineer, who is listening5 tonight, is going to testify and will be ready because I6 think he'll be, engineers are usually efficient. So I7 think that will work. So I would expect we'll have8 people on the 16th but I am not saying we can finish in9 two nights.10 MS. McGOVERN: I'm going to make the11 recommendation we notify the newspapers that we're12 having two special meetings Jamilet, both the 16th and13 the 23rd.14 MR. AFRAN: Let me ask a question, if I can.15 When does the community commentary fit in the schedule?16 You might as well say the 30th too, since there's going17 to have to be at least a night for their commentary.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes.19 MAYOR McCARTNEY: So seems to me that so20 many people are not available on the 23rd, can we move21 it to the 30th?22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We have a quorum for the23 23rd?24 MR. KLEIN: We have it for the 16th.25 10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The 16th. We have a1 quorum for both?2 MR. PLOCKER: Applicant is good for the 30th3 as well.4 MR. AFRAN: Can I mention one thing, it's5 been made known to me that it's difficult for many6 people to hear back here and I am actually having7 trouble hearing.8 MAYOR McCARTNEY: I was suggesting moving9 the 23rd to the 30th if more people would be available.10 MR. AFRAN: That certainly works for me.11 I'd like to be able to get all these witnesses in and12 I'm sure we will. I'm happy with that, to skip the 23rd13 and do the 16th and the 30th. But then we would need, I14 am sure, a full night for the community statements, then15 we need to have closing arguments and board16 deliberations. So those, at least a night for the17 community, I don't know how long it will take, and then18 we have to do final arguments.19 And there was one question I had for the20 Chair. I'd say announce the 30th at the same time.21 MS. McGOVERN: All right. We'll do the22 announcement also for 30th, right. The applicants free.23 That doesn't -- we didn't ask the board if they're24 available for the 30th.25 11 MR. AFRAN: I didn't mean to presume, sorry.1 MS. McGOVERN: So let's -- that's four2 meetings in July.

plicants free.23 That doesn't -- we didn't ask the board if they're24 available for the 30th.25 11 MR. AFRAN: I didn't mean to presume, sorry.1 MS. McGOVERN: So let's -- that's four2 meetings in July. People go on vacation, that's a lot.3 So you have the regular meeting on Wednesday.4 MAYOR McCARTNEY: The 16th and the 30th.5 MS. McGOVERN: Okay. This is -- so what6 we're going to do is notice for all three meetings. On7 the 16th we'll figure out whether it's going to be the8 23rd or the 30th, but we'll have that part done and9 we'll preserve your notice, Mr. Plocker, one way or10 another. Whether we're going to the 23rd or we're going11 to the 30th.12 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you. Appreciate that.13 MR. AFRAN: I had a question. We talked14 about the board holding a work session. Did the Chair15 envision that would be before we had final arguments?16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: No, after final arguments.17 MR. AFRAN: Okay.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The board has do a little19 homework.20 MR. PLOCKER: When you say, work session, do21 you mean deliberation?22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Deliberation.23 MS. McGOVERN: Not work session.24 MR. AFRAN: That was Mr. Bagoff's phrase, so25 12 I used his phrase.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: It would be public meeting2 deliberation.3 MR. AFRAN: So looks like we're going to4 need at least two nights after the 30th to fit all that5 in, community, closing arguments and deliberation.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Let's see how it goes.7 MR. AFRAN: Let's see how it goes. Okay.8 I had one other matter of housekeeping I was9 asked to raise. I know it's very difficult actually to10 keep up with it, Jamilet has a big burden, we notice11 there aren't regular minutes on this case and the12 transcript isn't posted. I think the transcripts after13 January may not have yet been posted, but no minutes as14 well. So some people depend on the minutes, not the15 lawyers, but some people depend on those. I was asked16 to bring that to the boards attention that since there17 are no minutes being posted at the moment, no18 transcripts, people have no ability to follow up at this19 stage.20 MS. McGOVERN: They can listen to the21 meeting, the video is right on the website.22 MR. AFRAN: No, I understand but there is a23 legal duty about minutes at some point.24 MS. McGOVERN: Understood. And Jamilet is25

08/07/2025 02:56:42 PM Page 13 to 16 of 175 4 of 70 sheets 13 working on it.1 MR. AFRAN: I am not complaining, I am just2 pointing out I was asked to raise the issue.3 MS. McGOVERN: Nobody is foreclosed from4 watching the meeting from beginning to end. It's posted5 on the website.6 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Plocker, are there other7 transcripts outstanding?8 MR. PLOCKER: Except for last Monday, I9 believe all of them were sent in to the board.10 MR. AFRAN: Okay. Great.11 MR. PLOCKER: I'm just not making a12 representation definitely, but we can certainly go back13 and check.14 MR. AFRAN: Thank you. Thank you.15 MR. PLOCKER: Okay.16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker.17 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you.18 The applicant would like to call Mark Seel19 and he has testified before, if you would like to20 reswear him in.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, let's reswear him.22 MS. McGOVERN: Do you swear or affirm to23 tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth.24 THE WITNESS: I do.25 14 MS. McGOVERN: Please state you full name,1 spelling your last name for the record.2 THE WITNESS: Mark Seel, S-E-E-L.3 M A R K S E E L, having been duly sworn4 testifies as follows:5 And Mr. Seel, you testified in this public6 Q. hearing before, I believe it was on January 29, is that7 correct?8 That's correct.9 A. Why don't we just have him quickly go over his10 Q. qualifications for the benefit of the board and11 everybody else in the room.12 Mr. Seel, could you just state who your employer13 is, your background, licenses, what you do, we'll start14 with that?15 Sure. I'm employed with Langan Engineering and16 A. Environmental Services. I've got over 30 years of17 experience in geotechnical and geological engineering.18 I have a bachelor's degree in geological engineering and19 a master's in engineering from Stevens Institute of20 Technology in civil environmental.21 For the last 30 years I've primarily focused on a22 combination of commercial and residential and retail23 projects throughout the country and rural and focused on24 a lot of, primarily on geological rock falls,25 15 landslides, stability, things of that nature.1 I am a licensed engineer in New Jersey as well as2 a licensed professional geologist in three states.3 And your license in New Jersey is currently good4 Q. and in good standing?5 Yes, it is.6 A. Okay.7 Q. Originally in this case I believe you issued or8 your company issued a report dated

three states.3 And your license in New Jersey is currently good4 Q. and in good standing?5 Yes, it is.6 A. Okay.7 Q. Originally in this case I believe you issued or8 your company issued a report dated January 14, 2025?9 That's correct.10 A. And you testified at the January 29 meeting about11 Q. the findings in that report, correct?12 Correct.13 A. And after that meeting or during that meeting it14 Q. was suggested that perhaps additional testing should be15 performed. Do you recall that?16 Yes.17 A. And you performed additional testing?18 Q. Correct.19 A. And you issued a revised report from this month,20 Q. June of 2025?21 Correct. 18th of June.22 A. Okay.23 Q. Could you please explain to the board and24 everybody in the room about the additional testing that25 16 was done and what your conclusions were?1 Yes. So the additional testing we did was2 A. focused on the area of the slope north of the proposed3 Building D between the proposed Building E and Howell4 Drive. The nature of the investigation was a handful of5 borings, it was a total of four soil borings into rock6 as well as additional test pits that were in the slope.7 The intent was, once again, to characterize the nature8 of the materials and evaluate the stability of that9 slope with respect to the construction of the proposed10 Building D. And what we found was that the rock,11 generally speaking, was shallower to the north of12 Building D. The rock mass appeared strong, very hard.13 The materials, the soils, overburden materials, the14 soils are very typically dense. They're very dense and15 the stability was -- the slopes are stable both with16 respect to existing conditions as well as proposed17 conditions to do the development.18 MR. PLOCKER: I have nothing further.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.20 Mayor McCartney, do you have any questions21 for the witness on his testimony?22 MAYOR McCARTNEY: I guess my only question23 would be, so if and when the plan was presented and they24 were looking at where the test sites were and you did25

5 of 70 sheets Page 17 to 20 of 175 08/07/2025 02:56:42 PM 17 additional testing were the test sites, did you do1 similar to what they had suggested by the objectors?2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe the proposed3 borings and test pit locations were consistent with what4 was being asked as well as what I felt was5 professionally expected.6 MR. PLOCKER: Can I just clarify.7 Mr. Seel, did you review your testimony from8 the prior meeting?9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.10 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you.11 MR. AFRAN: Yeah, Mr. Chairman, I am not12 sure it was an objector who requested it. I didn't make13 any request, I am not sure where the request came from.14 I thought it came from the board or the board staff. So15 I just want to clarify, I don't recall the objectors16 making any request. I think Mayor McCartney might have17 misspoke on that point.18 MR. PLOCKER: I think --19 MS. McGOVERN: It was a Princeton Hydro20 person.21 MR. AFRAN: Okay. You're referring to the22 expert who spoke.23 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Yes.24 MR. AFRAN: Thank you.25 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Anymore questions?1 MAYOR McCARTNEY: No. Thank you.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein?3 MR. KLEIN: No questions.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Vice Chair Guarino?5 VICE CHAIRMAN GUARINO: No questions, Mr.6 Chairman.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Alper?8 MR. ALPER: Possibly.9 On the 25th of February the Planning Board10 heard from Princeton Hydro, John Walsh, are you familiar11 with that testimony?12 THE WITNESS: On February -- no, I was not.13 MR. ALPER: Okay.14 So no matter what's in -- is anything that's15 in the new report in response to the claims that were16 made by the Princeton Hydro report, the presentation17 that came after the initial reports?18 THE WITNESS: Firstly, I don't know if I19 reviewed that.20 MR. ALPER: Okay. Thank you.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Cardoza?22 MR. CARDOZA: No questions.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ms. Kapferer?24 MS. KAPFERER: Quick question, I think25 19 similar to Mr. Alper's question. So you didn't do any1 analysis related to groundwater or anything like that?2 You were strictly focused on the stability, is that3 correct?4 THE WITNESS: Well, we looked at5 groundwater, anything below the ground. All conditions,6 soil, rock, water conditions.7 MS. KAPFERER: And what did you find related8 to groundwater?9 THE WITNESS: We did not see groundwater10 table in any borings. We did borings and test pits from11 this last round closer to

conditions.7 MS. KAPFERER: And what did you find related8 to groundwater?9 THE WITNESS: We did not see groundwater10 table in any borings. We did borings and test pits from11 this last round closer to the end of the wet season as12 is defined by the DEP and we found no groundwater in the13 borings.14 MS. KAPFERER: And did you do any mottling?15 THE WITNESS: We looked for it, we didn't16 notice any mottling shown in the test pit log.17 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. That's it for my18 questions.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. MacNeill?20 MR. MacNEILL: Just one question. Is it21 common to not find mottling in your soil borings or test22 pits?23 THE WITNESS: Mottling is not always24 present. It's indicative of changes in the water table25 20 and that's one of the reasons that often it's required1 for the stormwater world, but it's not always found. It2 can be done, depending on soil conditions.3 MR. MacNEILL: Okay. So in your experience4 there are instances where the mottling has not been5 found?6 THE WITNESS: Often, yes.7 MR. MacNEILL: That's all I have.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Haizel, any questions?9 MR. HAIZEl: No questions at this point.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran.11 MR. AFRAN: Thank you.12 Mr. Seel, were you doing these tests in your13 Q. understanding in response to Mr. Walsh's report or in14 response to some other stimulation?15 I don't know who Mr. Walsh is, so.16 A. He is from Princeton Hydro.17 Q. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: One second. I forgot18 Council Person Scarpa. My fault.19 COUNCIL PERSON SCARPA: I have no questions.20 I was going to remind you, but I don't have any21 questions.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.23 MR. AFRAN: Good to hear your voice.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker.25